The Meanings of Appleiness

I’ve never worked at Apple and know very few people who did. Nevertheless, I read Adam Lashinsky’s book and enough that I think I can get away with replying to the Meaning of Googliness with the following:

Googliness means Appleiness means
Doing the right thing Doing the best thing
Striving for excellence Striving for greatness
Keeping an eye on the goals Keeping both eyes on your task
Being proactive Being obsessive
Going the extra mile Going to the moon
Doing something nice for others, with no strings attached Doing everything for the user
Being friendly and approachable Keeping your mouth shut
Valuing users and colleagues Valuing functions other than your own
Rewarding great performance Punishing failure
Being humble, and letting go of the ego Keeping your mouth shut
Being transparent, honest, and fair Keeping your mouth shut
Having a sense of humor Never writing a post on what Appleiness means
  • vatdoro

    LOL. I love it! Thanks, Horace.

    I read the Googliness piece this morning and wasn’t very impressed. I’m glad someone (especially you) compared it to Apple. I think you nailed it.

    I don’t have any experience at Apple, but I expect Apple isn’t as friendly or “fun” as Google. But, it is very, very rewarding when you produce truly great products.

    • Get Serious

      it is…

  • complex

    Googliness: cater to nerds / Appleiness: cater to people

  • Ryan Jones

    not sure about “with no strings attached”, Google does nice things for others, with tracking

    • I think you missed an aspect of Googliness. This is written to how you interact within the company not necessarily how you interact with your users and clients.

      That was my take anyway.

      • drx1

        I guess that is one way to look at it… there are always strings – such as they know about you that you know about you.

  • Luis Alejandro Masanti

    The full article on Googliness is a master piece of googliness: full of lies and crap!

    Almost every quote is easily destroy by a Google product or action.
    Remember Buzz? Remember the wifi spying? Then re-read “Doing something nice for others” and “Being friendly…” And so on…

    But maybe, it is real. Inside Google they have goodliness, outside Google… sorry, that’s another story,

    • Walt French

      Every company has a culture and communicating/sharing it is important. So/But it’s surprising, as much as IQ is supposedly selected for in hiring, how much the Googliness post shows uncritical acceptance of extremely self-serving claims.

      “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”
      ― Upton Sinclair, I, Candidate for Governor: And How I Got Licked

    • Richard

      In the article on “The Meaning of Googliness,” Jens mentioned the word “googly.” As a fact-checking exercise, I used the built-in dictionary on my Mac by double-clicking on “googly” and then right-clicking on the resulting selection, choosing the option to Look Up “googly”.

      I’m still not quite sure whether the definition that popped up fits better with number 6 on his list or number 11. In any case, here’s what the dictionary says:

      “a ball bowled with a deceptive bounce.”

      • drx1

        “a ball bowled with a deceptive bounce.” – is as good a definition as any.

        I think that Google – or parts of Google may strive to the ideal … but the “Dont Be Evil” is kind of vague… maybe they just mean “dont do self destructive things to Google”. Or maybe Google can do no evil, therefore the motto is easy to follow – form a certain point of view.

        In Googlerussia, the product IS you!

      • Kizedek

        Yeah, Cricket’s version of the Knuckle Ball or Curve Ball.

  • Walt French

    Dunno why BenT satisfied himself by “merely” tweeting this to his 3275 followers, but it’s too good not to add here: 13. Ignoring how your salary is paid for.

  • FalKirk

    Damn you, Horace! You wrote the exact article that I wish I were capable of writing.

    Well done. Very well done, indeed.

    (Please pardon the abruptness of this post. Must go to my room now and sulk.)

  • Jeff B

    I would say “expecting great performance” more than outright “punishing failure”.

    • Get Serious

      “expecting great performance” vs. Taking responsibility and learning from failure.

      (MobileMe, Maps and assorted other “learning experiences”)

      Don’t recall any apologies from the “G” or the “MS”

      • obarthelemy

        well, the G doesn’t lock its platform to its software, so if they ever abuse their stewardship as egregiously as the A did with maps, replacing the faulty app is only a click away.

        Also, you may want to google “google apologizes”, to avoid further untruths.

      • drx1

        Yet it was Google who was shown the iPhone way by Apple and decided they did not get enough customer data from their flagship “Maps” on iOS …

        Certainly Apple could have handled the Maps issue better… but in the end Apple has a good products and Google was forced to make a better product.

  • Well, you certainly won the internet today.

  • Walt French

    Well, you can sure see the social culture at Google in terms of customer information flowing to its most “interesting” use, whereas Apple — by both Horace’s characterizations and also my experience with the couple of employees *I* have known — has a culture oriented to its products & services.

    OK, users’ data *IS* Google’s product & service offering.

    • drx1

      In Soviet Russia, the product buys you! In Googlerussia, the product IS you!

  • dan

    Bashing someone for loving the place he works. Classy. Not once did he mention apple or anyone else but as usual third rate bloggers begging for clicks have to well write click bait garbage.

    • hajder

      Actually Meiert says he doesn’t work in Google anymore.

    • regexp

      Nothing Horace wrote is bashing the gentlemen that posted the article about “googliness”. But you did bash Horace by calling him a “third rate blogger.” Does the word hypocrisy mean anything to you?

    • Horace was simply taking this list of cultural beliefs that Jens Meiert documented and mapping out what the Apple equivalents are. I am really not sure where you think Horace is any bashing anyone.

  • obarthelemy

    Thinking more specifically of mobile ecosystems/OSes:

    Appleiness: decide you know what’s best, and make users pay dearly for it. (I’m actually just badly paraphrasing Cook)
    Googleiness: Don’t, and don’t.

    It’s amazing how well appleiness works. It reminds me of Philip K. Dick’s Ubik. I once worked as sales director with a tech director that had that same ability to be utterly convinced of pretty much anything, even sometimes (rarely) rather obviously wrong things, and to be so adamant that some clients just surrendered. He was generally brilliant but had 0 self-assessment ability. As the sales guy, the main advantage I saw what that clients who accepted this attitude wouldn’t make waves mid-project 🙂

    He had a good sense of humor, so the one time I got him to admit he was wrong in writing, I kept that taped to my monitor for a while.

    Back to iOS, I find it amazing that the iconset and theme, the launcher and OS shell, the keyboard, the default apps…. are frozen in stone, integral parts of the OS. I can’t think of any other platform that works that way ( well, Winphone now probably ?), and I’m struggling to understand why. I understand the point of good defaults, but blocking changes and upgrades ?

    • mdelvecchio

      iOS is not, nor has ever been, the tweaker’s OS (unless you feel like jailbreaking). it’s simple and uniform, so that senior citizens like my dad can use it w/ no muss, no fuss. wanna tweak out on Unbunto? get an android.

      as for “paying dearly” for the ecosystem — i have no idea what youre talking about. the ecosystem is the richest, has the most and best apps, the most and best peripherals, accessories, etc.. im a software dev and im quite pleased with the value it offers me. the last thing i want to do is dork around w/ file managers or keyboard packs on my phone.

      • obarthelemy

        Actually, for senior citizens, there are Android launchers with bigger, simpler icons, no gestures only touches, bigger fonts. I got that for my parents who were struggling with their dumbphone’s legibility.

        Again, that’s the notion of defaults: it’s nice that the basic OS is a delight w/o any tweaks to the majority of users, it’s also nice to have the ability to adapt it to special requirements (bad eyesight…) and taste. The ability to customize does not necessarily mean that the uncustomized version is inferior, just that one size and one color do not fit all.

      • samiare

        iOS is actually know for it’s extensive accessibility options. You should look into it before you make the claim that you can’t change iOS in any way. Apple doesn’t let you edit the OS for cosmetic reasons, but they go above and beyond to make their devices usable by everyone, regardless of their special needs.

      • ludachrs

        Who is going to install that for my grandmother?

      • mhikl

        Send her to the Android store. /s

      • 1sthand

        Her Grandson maybe?

    • Koen van Hees

      Regarding your last paragraph: No confusion whatsoever. If you don’t know the value of no confusion whatsoever, you’re not target audience 🙂 I love no confusion whatsoever. For everyone around me who otherwise doesn’t stop complaining about confusion. And even for myself. Love it!

    • Space Gorilla

      Let me edit your post to make it a bit shorter: “The earth is flat!”

      You’re welcome.

    • Springboard is just another app.

    • TheEternalEmperor

      Your last paragraph is especially ironic considering ALL you do is play the contrarian. That’s it. That’s all you have and you don’t do it well.

      Here’s a challenge: Go do your own site and see how many hits you get with your “insight.”

    • tmay

      I recall reading rumors of the Mac in 1983, and within a few weeks of announcement in January of 1984, I ordered one. The first of many Macintoshes.

      In use, the major takeaway was that every application worked in the basics like any other application. Over the years and in real terms, users had an expectation of this uniformity and badly mocked poorly transitioned DOS and Windows products and were very vociferous with all developers. It was in effect the customer enforcing developer behavior, based on Apple’s broad and detailed guidelines.

      In practice, this meant many more applications could be utilized without a steep learning curve, certainly an advantage at the time.

      You seem to discount that experience as some kind of outlier, but in effect, Apple has always preferred robust commonality. Needless to say, Apple sometimes departs this commonality, and the act is widely panned by both users and developers. For myself, that commonality still translates to ease of use and leads to higher productivity, and I expect that of iOS as well.

      • obarthelemy

        Funny thing is, I find Android’s UI a lot more consistent than iOS’s: back button, menu button… all available at all times, in all apps, in the same place. Deeper down, ditto the ‘intents” system that allows any app to expose its functionality to other apps and to the OS.

    • templewolf

      IOS is just a bunch of icons on a screen and that is all it needs to be. The learning curve is very small, which is a sign of a well designed UI. I teach people to use software and the program I use is great, but it takes me 2+ hours to teach people to use it. With IOS it takes a few minutes, that’s impressive. The best counter example I can give you is Windows. They put a shinny new UI on each new version to attract users, which involves moving around menus, removing the start bar, creating Metro and all it does is confuse users, that’s not progress.

  • regexp

    Its articles like Meiert that make me relieved that I turned down offers from google. There is a difference between enjoying what you do and liking the organization you work for and buying into a cult atmosphere. The guys I know at Apple are generally a more pragmatic bunch.

    • 1sthand

      ‘A cult atmosphere’
      I kind of feel it around here.

  • Googliness => open to making derivations of their name.
    Appleiness => so not open to derivations of their name because they don’t really work well.

    • Googliness => open to derivations of their name if it doesn’t really matter.

      See “ungoogleable sweden”.

    • Chidi Onwuka

      How about “Googlelogical” and “Applelogical” or “Googalicious” and “Applelicious” ?

    • If it’s for the record, you need to delineate the “subtle differences in meaning” otherwise you’ve added nothing.

      • I disagree. But here’s the difference:

        Apple + y + ness: the quality (-ness) of resembling (-y) Apple.
        Apple + ness: the quality (-ness) of Apple.

        Honestly, I thought it was pretty obvious. After all, my five-year-old seems to get the difference.

      • No wonder you connect with your 5 year old, your derogatory comment shows you have about the same maturity.

      • Man makes observation on the internet.
        Other man says his observation added nothing.
        Man disagrees, gives evidence and the reason for not adding the evidence in the first place.
        Other man says takes comment to be derogatory.

        Fascinating thing, this internet, ain’t it?

        To respond to your comment directly — why the hell shouldn’t I connect with my five-year-old!? Where do you get off!?

        Also — GET OFF MY LAWN!

        (Am I playing the game right?)

      • drx1

        It is often good to assume, some random person you never meet, possible from another country, may not take or assume everything you do…

        so sometimes it is good to spell things out.

      • I can agree with this statement. However, it is also good to assume, some random person you never met, possibly from another country, might have experiences different from yours that you may not have understood, or might have erred in their reasoning which deserves clarification. I have no problem with asking for such, but I have a problem with this:

        >If it’s for the record, you need to delineate the “subtle differences in meaning” otherwise you’ve added nothing

        Methinks this guy doesn’t know what “for the record” means.

      • marcoselmalo

        This little tiff you had with George is going into your NSA file.

  • def4


  • wonkeythemonkey

    This article is turning out to be a kind of Rorschach test for fans and detractors of one company or the other. I personally saw no bias, as the list seems like a mixture of “Apple wins” and “Google wins” — or at the very least “the winner is a matter of opinion” — to me. Is it better to be proactive or obsessive? Horace makes no claim either way in this list.

    However, some people are reading the lists and thinking “Apple comes out ahead — you fanboy!” while others are thinking “you must hate Apple to criticize it that way!” It makes for an enlightening peek at the psyche of biased people.

    • def4

      Cultural values are chosen, not decided.
      There is no right, wrong, winners or losers, just a different set of consequences.

    • wonkeythemonkey

      Aaaand someone downrated me. For being… not biased enough? I guess? Or for acknowledging that people have biased opinions? I honestly don’t know. Anyone have an idea?

      • Walt French

        Not my downvote, but I personally found the original list rather unaware of anything except the PR Dept’s Company Line.

        In good marketing, you present your attributes honestly, but in the way that your prospective clients will find most attractive. If the company is to be better the next day, there has to be some understanding of where the current actions and goals can be improved. If the post was marketing, boo. If a discussion of what the employee experience is all about, gosh.

      • mhikl

        It’s the difference between heart and looking good. Google likes to look good. Steve had heart.

      • def4

        I have proudly downvoted you. Twice.
        First because you talk too wise and second because you played the victim.

        If you think you are not biased then I think you have nothing interesting to say.
        You can keep your pseudointellectual and patronising attempt at detached analysis to yourself.

      • wonkeythemonkey

        I’m glad you’re proud of yourself. Keep up the good work of weeding out all smugness on the internet!

      • dislike

        There’s nothing less interesting on the internet than hearing people complaining about their “likes” or “downvotes”. Just delete your post if you’re not happy with the response.

      • wonkeythemonkey

        Yeah, that’s not going to happen. I stand by what I posted, and I’m not complaining. I was just curious about what I said that could have been worth someone’s downvote. Now I have my answer: it was someone who decided they didn’t like my fancy attitude. I’d say that I can safely disregard that feedback, as it has nothing to do with the content of my post.

  • BaltimoreDave

    Googliness = monetizing the user. “We don’t monetize the things we create,” “We monetize users.” – Android creator Andy Rubin

  • Pingback: Wednesday Morning News()

  • Clement

    Apple keeps on telling us that they strive for the best. It’s marketing, but I’m starting to believe it, and I think their products reflect that.

  • Jerry Ballard

    This rivals any Letterman Top 10.

  • af

    I don’t read this blog for laughs – but “Never writing a post on what Appleiness means” is a classic 🙂

  • Larry

    This is hilarious. The last one is best. Horace, I never viewed you as funny, but that changed today. Love it.

  • rmagruder

    1. If you don’t value a feature, no customer should either. We are right. They are wrong. They must conform.

    2. It is better to deny a user the ability to do something at all than to require competence on their part to figure out how to do it.

    3. We are elite. We are smarter than everyone else. We wish to sell to people with the same attitude. There is no “different”. It is either done the Apple way, or it is done the wrong way.

    4. Android users are illiterate peasants. Mock them.

    • SteamrollingChumps

      Thanks for demonstrating why keeping your mouth shut is a valuable trait.

    • macsimcon

      I use an iPhone and not an Android phone because I want agency. I want someone making sure that my applications are vetted, and are malware- and virus-free.

      I want someone working on my behalf to ensure that my iPhone works every time. Although I’m capable of managing memory and multitasking on my own, I would prefer that someone else does it so I don’t have to.

      My iPhone isn’t a cause. It’s a tool, and I need that tool to be easy to use, easy to manage, and reliable.

      That doesn’t make Android users peasants. It might just mean that they value control and features the iPhone lacks more than I do.

      What’s wrong with that?

      • rmagruder

        I have yet to see a real person nailed by malware. I’m sure it has happened to someone somewhere, but most of the time it is reported by companies who are in the business of selling anti-malware tools and have something to gain by exaggerating the threat.

        Please don’t confuse me ripping on Apple with ripping on Apple users. I’ve got no problem with people that prefer iPhone or iPad. To each his own. It’s Apple’s attitude that irritates me, and some of the people who buy into that attitude.

      • James

        I am a real person. I have twice had friends using Android phones apologise to me for spam sent to me via malware on their phones.

      • rmagruder

        I didn’t say it couldn’t happen. But I’d be very interested in knowing what app they installed that had it, where they got it, and whether they even looked at the list of permissions the app wanted before clicking install.

      • James

        That is almost verbatim the reply one of these very people gave me when I criticised Android’s malware situation. Then his malware happened.

        The problem is that apps routinely ask for permissions in excess of what they need and people grant them because the alternative is not having that app. It’s all or nothing so they just say ok.

      • rmagruder

        Well, I’ve had the Google G1, the Nexus One, the Galaxy Nexus, the Nexus 7 and that doesn’t count my wife’s devices. After downloading and installing and running stuff with abandon I’ve downloaded the app scanners and they’ve always come back clean. As I said, I’m sure it CAN happen, and HAS happened to people who don’t exercise some care…but I don’t think it’s common at all, and generally requires a certain amount of laziness on the part of the person using the device. I guess I look it like getting your hot coffee at the drive thru. Yeah, you CAN burn your tongue. Exercise a little common sense, and it’s very unlikely you will. You probably don’t follow this, but CyanogenMOD’s version of Android is getting the ability to make certain things private without breaking an app that ‘needs’ them. So if you don’t want your location reported, you can have a setting that simply denies apps location data. And of course, override it on a per-app basis. Google may do something like this going forward, too. But still, it comes down on you. If you look at the list and see the app wants to send SMS’s, and it’s nothing but a game…gee, maybe don’t install it! Point is, you get the choice, no one decides for you. Also, the reviews on Google Play typically light up like a pinball machine when excessive permissions are requested. It doesn’t take that much to be pretty much immune.

      • James

        Nobody is suggesting Android cannot be used safely. The problem is that not everyone (read, most people) is that technical. I don’t know how I would even begin telling my dad how to install CyanogenMOD or run an app scanner. I give him an iPad and I can just say ‘knock yourself out’ and he loves it.

        I don’t want the wild west of Windows repeated on mobile. I think most consumers feel the same way. It’s great to just use a device and know it’s secure and know my software is legitimate. That’s truly huge added value. Just hearing you talk of mods and scanners makes my head hurt. I left that behind with my Windows PC in 2008.

      • rmagruder

        James, I’m not suggesting you or anyone else mod your phone. I’m just saying I’ve seen that there is some movement to address this kind of thing, and at some point it will be ‘mainstream’ed into the core experience. I’m sorry I wasn’t more clear on that point.

        I also think you should get some seat time with a Galaxy S4, a Nexus 4 and a new Nexus 7 and actually get to know your way around it. If nothing else, you’ll be getting a preview of iOS 8 ! 🙂 : ) 🙂

      • James

        Haha I’ll give you a laugh for that one! 🙂

        I will say this about Android. I have many friends that use it and love it. But they are all a very specific demographic and you know already what it is, 20-somethings that build their own computers, you know the guys (I was one!). That’s not my point though, my point is this: when they show me their phones I see things that I know I’ll never see on an iPhone because of QC. I’ve seen apps crash, grey lines at the bottom of the screen during movie playback etc. I just hate that stuff. I see Android as a free ticket for companies like Samsung and HTC and the like that I don’t feel have anything of the passion for what they do that Apple does.

        Apple has many faults, but fundamentally it is an engineering company that believes it’s on a mission to build great things. I love that idealism. I want to reward it and I love using their stuff because that passion comes through in the attention to detail.

      • rmagruder

        I’ve seen all of the above on iDevices I’ve used. Sorry, but some of the nastiest crash-out-to-home apps I’ve seen were on iOS. That’s become almost a mythology, I’m afraid. I’d name a few apps, but I really don’t want to bash the developers, some of whom really tried to work with me to find and quash the bugs.

        Spend some time with a new Nexus 7. Then get back to me on passion and attention to detail

      • James

        Let me know if that Nexus 7 is still working in 12 months or if it’s a brick like so many of the first generation now are.

        It’s about track record in the end. Android is not a baby any more, it’s OLDER than iOS and its track record is that of malware, jerky scrolling, carrier skinning and just general yuk. It’s a whole load of effort I just don’t feel I should have to make in 2013.

      • rmagruder

        Um, the only reason for a N7 to be a brick right now is if you dropped and broke it. I used the last version for a year until a drop cracked the glass 🙁

        As for the slowdowns that you’re referring to, Android 4.3 fixed that for last year’s Nexus 7’s. I’ll agree no one should have had to wait that long. I’m not going to excuse Google on this one. But anyone with a Nexus 7 from last year should be getting good-as-new performance again with the update. All this is easily researchable if you care to.

        In the meantime, with my Nexus 7 it’s not jerky, it has no carrier skinning, the display is drop-dead gorgeous, its performance runs rings around the iPad Mini, it’s lighter, more pocketable, and basically beats it up pretty badly. If you don’t know this, you just haven’t been paying much attention. And it’s not just Android loyalists who’ve said it. Plenty of reviews from those using both iPads and the new Nexus 7 have Google’s new toy the nod. And yes, there are some issues with it that are *PROBABLY* manufacturing issues that should not have happened and hopefully will be rectified. But all that having been said, the new Nexus 7 is a phenomenal piece of hardware and software. You know, it doesn’t actually take anything away from you to be open minded and see wonderful things on the other side of the fence. I can certainly see a lot of appeal in iDevices.

      • 1sthand

        The Nexus 7!? You mean the tablet that copied the iPad mini poorly, only managing to sell because it is cheap? Bloody whatsitname of Google once said a tablet smaller than 10inches requires a finger sander.
        Being snarky aside, I haven’t noticed any slowdown on my N7 on 4.2. Upgraded to 4.3, still fees the same. Like you said, nice device.

      • 1sthand

        My ex-housemate who lost all data via an iTunes update on her iPhone 4 must be damn unlucky.
        Thing is, with software, one can never be 100% sure.

      • James

        Take scrolling for instance. Even the latest Android hardware with 200-core CPU’s and 16GB RAM doesn’t scroll as smoothly as the 2007 iPhone. That’s just not good enough.

      • rmagruder

        There’s a “scrolling-obsession” among Apple fans that never ceases to amaze me. I swear, it’s like the only thing you do i is pick up a device, go to Chrome (which btw is not all that hot performance wise on Android compared to other browsers), and scroll, and you get a little stutter and its game over lights out android sucks.

        I’ll admit that if all you ever do is scroll on your devices, iOS has always come out ahead (even if it means you get lots of checkerboard patterns while you scroll…and wait for the render when you lift).

        But geez, man. There’s SOOOO much more than just scrolling up and down.


        Here’s the N7 video compared to an iPad Mini. How much of a difference do you see in scrolling, gaming, etc.

      • James

        There’s a reason we go on about it – it’s important. Scrolling through webpages and content is something you do every single time you turn on the device. I am sure Android has many lovely bells and whistles, but failing to have smooth scrolling SIX YEARS after the iPhone had it with a tiny fraction of the power available to Android in 2013 is fully deserving of criticism and begs the assumption that this is a clunky, poor quality OS. You can’t blame people for getting a poor first impression when they see 15fps scrolling through text!

      • rmagruder

        Again, pick up a newer model and let me know if you think scrolling is slow. I’ll look at taking a YouTube video or something, because I’m personally kind of over it.

      • James

        Well Project Butter has hopefully helped, but I can’t shake the feeling that something is very wrong when a 2007, 400MHz device puts a 2013 device to shame on something that fundamental. That absolutely beautifully smooth UI of iOS isn’t unimportant, it maintains the illusion of physical control over UI elements that is lost in Android IMO, at least until now if it is as good as you say it now is.

        Ultimately I could never use Android because I find Google to be a scary entity and I don’t want to throw myself into its world. I’m just glad that at this point, in my opinion, Apple is also a more beautiful alternative and I love using their stuff.

        I’m going to bow out as I want to get on with some stuff but I thank you for a reasonable debate that didn’t descend into argument or name-calling, very refreshing. I hope we’ve both moved each other’s opinions an inch or two. Shame we can’t argue this over coffee. Have a great evening.


      • rmagruder

        I didn’t say it was unimportant. It’s just not EVERYTHING. I don’t feel any lack of ‘physical control’ over elements on my Nexus 7 but I did on many earlier Android devices. It’s also pretty well understood why it happens and what tradeoffs made it happen. Some people prefer to have a super smooth experience all the time no matter what, even at the expense of freedom to do anything they want without the phone or vendor saying “you can’t do that!”, and other people prefer the freedom and pay a little of the price on the ‘smoothness’ side. To each his own. For what it’s worth, if I were doing any serious music creation work, I’d get an iPad. Audio latency is still better there, and most of the high end software developers for music are on iOS. So Apple easily wins with music creation software. I may yet one day rock both.

      • rmagruder

        Here. Taped this for you. Still going with 15fps?

      • reboot

        “I had just rebooted it to make su”

        To make su what? I’m not sure what people are supposed to be able to get from a video of you flicking pages around at high speed, converted to 30fps by YouTube, particularly.
        “There are still some noticeable problems — somehow Google still can’t figure out how scrolling animations work, so the Play Store is as jittery as ever”
        “Powered by a hefty 1.5GHz Snapdragon S4 Pro processor and 2GB of RAM, it flits around the OS with ease, and I rarely encountered stutters, jitters, or problems of any kind. (Except scrolling. Cool job Google.)”

      • rmagruder

        I just rebooted the tablet to clear RAM.

        I can’t do anything about YouTube limitations. But it should be obvious that scrolling is zippy. There is only the barest hint of stutter in Chrome I’d your scrolling while images are loading. Other browsers such as Firefox are even smoother.

      • Space Gorilla

        “rebooted the tablet” Heh, what is this, 1998?

      • templewolf

        I rebooted my 3rd gen IPad running the latest software yesterday when Apps failed to install. Last week I could not open half my games until I did a restart.

      • Space Gorilla

        It happens, my kids reboot once in a while on their iPads, usually some game app locks up. It just struck me as funny, rebooting to clear RAM, that’s the kind of thing we did in the 90s.

        It’s fascinating how polarizing Apple is, and has always been. It’s as if the approach of abstracting the computer offends a small but vocal minority of nerds, and boy do they scream and stomp and yell “No fair!”

      • reboot

        Ah, yeah, I have to reboot all the time to make my tablet scroll correctly too.

      • rmagruder

        Very funny. I rebooted it so no one would accuse me of pre-loading the web pages so they’d be cached in RAM and be unnaturally fast at scrolling.

      • templewolf

        Touch responsiveness/smoothness does not seem to matter much for Android users, but if you are used to using IOS its rather jarring switching to Android. But to give credit where its due, 4.1 brought a significant improvement, though not quite IOS.

      • 1sthand

        I would love that 200 core CPU and 16GB RAM Android phone. Drools… It can probably replace my stupid laptop with only 8GB RAM.

      • templewolf

        That is a common misconception. The Google Play store vets all software for malware just like Apple does. Its the other back channel software downloaded off the internet that you have to watch out for. The only real comparison is to jail broken IPhone (which i have). In both instances you are stepping out of the walled garden, but my dad uses Android and I’m not worried about him getting malware.

      • Kizedek

        Perhaps they both “vet”. The question would still remain whether or not this “vetting” is indeed “just like Apple does”. Are the developer accounts and apps signed in the same way, with the opportunity to ban them and erase apps? I don’t know, I’m just asking.

        Obviously, there is still an issue with sandboxing and apps receiving more permissions than they need to have or should have (it sounds like app developers can list all the things they would like access to, and the user has to accept the whole list or not run the app; there is no granularity of item by item permission setting per app). Loosely, “mal”ware could mean no more than an app taking what you really don’t want them to have when they don’t really need it.

        It’s just that Android users seem to ignore all this and declare it a non-issue with the same breath that they incredulously deride Apple for its “iron-fistedness” and Apple users for putting up with it. It’s called peace of mind, and some people value it.

        Items like this also speak to the polish and detail of iOS and the lack of regard that Google has for its users, since in their “arrogance” they have “declared” that its not important for us mere mortals — and it contradicts their business model. (See, rmagruder, I can make declarations like this all day long, too; and you can’t prove to me that it isn’t in the minds of Messrs. Page, Brin and Schmidt. So, what do we have to go on? The actions and characters of the men involved.)

      • vet

        “The Google Play store vets all software for malware just like Apple does.”

        This is an uncommon misconception. They don’t vet it in the same way at all.

      • Fnordius

        That was not the claim. The claim was that the Google Play store vets software, just like the Apple App Store vets software.

        Of course both have different methods, as the Google Play store is less stringent about protecting the brand and (from what I have read) does more automated smoke testing, but all apps are vetted.

      • vet

        Ah, so someone from google runs the app, checks it operates as expected, isn’t a scam, checks that it absolutely requires all the permissions is requests? Or do you mean, runs a malware scanner over it and hopes it’s a known malware variant.

      • Walt French

        Your friendly Grammar Nazi here, with a Pro Tip® — use “like” as a preposition before nouns when you mean, “having similar qualities;” use “as” as a conjunction, connecting actions by time or similarity. “Winston Tastes Good, As A Cigarette Should (Taste).”

        Correct use wouldn’t have allowed for the confusion.

        Fun quote from my dictionary:


        Setting aside the adolescent propensity for like as a syntactical oral hiccup, there is no more grating solecism than this word’s use as a conjunction. Such a practice transforms good writers into country bumpkins. By comparison, the widely abused hopefully and the inexcusable irregardless sound positively learned. Admittedly, this is a prejudice, since like has been employed as a conjunction (at least in speech) for centuries. Still, it’s hard not to wince when reading like I said or He was running like he was a man on fire. Nearly always as or as if is called for. A useful hint: Avoid like when it would connect two independent clauses. Drop the words he was from the second example and like would be acceptable: He was running like a man on fire. If confused, stick with using like for comparisons: He was, like Job, a man on fire.

      • 1sthand

        ‘CyanogenMOD’s version of Android is getting the ability to make certain things private without breaking an app that ‘needs’ them. So if you don’t want your location reported, you can have a setting that simply denies apps location data.’
        I believe Android 4.3 has that already.

      • baerjamin

        The attitude of any corporation — from Apple, Google all the way through Koch Industries — has never irritated me. Frankly they are entities designed and empowered to create things people may be willing to buy in order to make money and enrich their shareholders. Frankly, rmagruder, the most irritating thing to me are people who go out of their way because corporations irritate them. Your comments are frankly offensive to people who don’t see things your way with regards to the tools they choose to use. You may not see it that way but I thought it useful to point out that, despite your best intentions, are, like so many others that seem to care what smart phone I use or should buy, offensive to me.

        I’m really not sure where this uber-fandom started but I really don’t give the smallest iota for the Android vs. iOS debate. As pointed out they are tools and they are differentiated by the philosophies employed in developing them. No one is wrong or right in choosing one over the other. The ongoing debates between those that think they are better than someone else due to their choice in the tool is immature, childish and frankly demean the technological discourse completely.

        For more:

      • rmagruder

        Sorry if you’re so easily offended. I stated from the get-go I had no problem with personal taste dictating differences in platform. I also made MANY positive comments about Apple products. Nonetheless, I have issues with Apple’s attitude (and that of SOME of its big fans), but I apologize for giving offense.

      • marcoselmalo

        Spoken like a gentleman. By the way, I keep reading your name as RMA Gruder.

      • rmagruder


      • Kizedek

        Interesting that you attribute a particular attitude to Apple and let it influence your opinion of their products which make great tools. I could care less about Google’s *attitude* as happy-go-lucky do-gooders who are just trying to help out (though it is doubtful they can focus and make a decision to save their lives). Nevertheless, I have issue’s with Google’s mentality and stated and unstated policies and actions that show they believe they own my data and can sell me as a product.

        I also believe Apple strives to make great products whatever Steve’s personal attitude may have been at various times in his life, and whatever the corporate marketing stance of Apple at any given time. I have seen all the top Apple execs on various videos and find them to be much more genuine people than, say, Eric Schmidt (gag). Oh, you gotta love Jony!

        Now, big fans’ attitudes are definitely an issue, and can be quite offensive. Nevertheless, I find a qualitative difference between the Apple fan, who lives/has lived in an MS and Google world, and who essentially says, “you are misreading Apple and mis- or un-informed about the benefits of its approach and products; honestly try it; it is actually better at A, B and C for X, Y and Z reasons.” Versus an Android fan (looking at you Obarthelemy), who buys every single one of the myths about Apple and essentially says, “you are an iSheep, you think you are so elite, you are just trying to be cool”. That’s way out of order.

        If people can’t see the difference in the arguments, regardless of the personal or corporate attitudes displayed (after all everyone has attitudes and opinions about everything), then I really wonder how they get on in life and wonder what education is coming to (oh, but that’s just us being “elitist”, I guess; and everyone’s “opinion” is equally valid despite any analysis or little things like facts that might be involved).

        Don’t apologize. But do check that you aren’t going through life with a general naivety due to the way that people and corporations come across to you. Despite all the iSheep “banter”, I really do find that Apple users are actually the more pragmatic. Ironic, isn’t it?

      • Space Gorilla

        Apple isn’t a living entity, it can’t have an attitude. You’re projecting.

      • rmagruder

        As someone who has worked in software development (including commercial) for over 25 years, I can tell you that corporate cultures DO exist and they do ‘infect the ranks’ so to speak. The way you speak about your competitors, your customers, etc bleeds through and you find the employees talking and thinking the same way. It’s called ‘bunker mentality’ (or ‘us vs. them’). Not everyone has it, and some companies are less than others, but those that are very driven and focused tend to bring bunker mentality with them as they face outside challenges and customer demands.

      • Walt French

        And it’s somehow relevant how many people you know who confess to having been pwned?

        Self-serving anti-virus posts notwithstanding, there are hundreds of thousands of people who’ve had their information and reliability compromised on Androids, whereas real-world attacks on Apple platforms are pretty much only thru phishing.

        It is of course quite obvious to any security expert how many potential attack vectors, and depth of defenses, that controlled/curated platforms such as Android, WP and iOS present, but the standard response from Android fans is that users just need to “be careful,” without specifying in the least how you know the real developers behind applications, and other quasi-sensible precautions.

        I think it’s perfectly legitimate for an individual to want more flexibility in his OS, knowing that certain options are riskier than others. It’s another to pretend that a very careful, consistent curation is unnecessary. Since one of my workmates had his identity utterly compromised a few years back (not mobile-related), I personally have been MUCH more cautious because I am not interested in spending the months it took him to dissociate myself from the multiple accounts opened in his name, correction of credit agencies’ info, dealing with tax authorities, etc. Uggh.

        Oh, and specific to Android: another coworker showed me his phone while somebody had SSH’d into it and was operating it remotely. The opportunity for total compromise is indeed very real. The overwhelming majority of phone users have no clue how likely it is that malware can give a stranger complete access to his electronic wallet, and how much harm can be wreaked. Denying the benefit of effective curation is really absurd.

      • rmagruder
      • Daniel1900

        I found it a horrifying read! My data lives on devices I own not just on servers in the cloud. Even moreso after recent revelations.

      • rmagruder

        Yeah, sorry, but unless you want to unplug from the internet entirely, there’s really little to scream and yell about. Spam filters and server-based rules have been scanning your emails forever. Mail always gets stored on a server. Your credit cards and some of your medical records are all online. Unfortunately, TRUE privacy online has never really existed, and recent revelations are just making it more VISIBLE to us than ever before. We can’t go back to an offline world, so we have to figure out how to put safeguards in place to prevent abuse of online information. Getting it offline just isn’t practical anymore.

      • Daniel1900

        My email provider scanning my email as part of a spam service is entirely different from a government reading or storing my email and that is to my mind entirely unacceptable.
        Also I am not suggesting we go back to an offline world just that offline backups are necessary because no cloud service is 100% reliable.

    • James

      This is the narrative put in Apple’s mouth by those that have an irrational dislike for the company. I have never seen anything to suggest this is remotely how Apple think. They mock bad design when they see it on occasion, but you take it way too far.

      • rmagruder

        All you have to do is watch an Apple keynote and pretty much all of this is demonstrated while they brag. Count the number of times the phrase “only Apple” is used.

      • James

        With no disrespect intended, that just sounds naive. Apple’s keynotes are their only public addresses of any kind. They have every right to tout their successes and they always back up their assertions with evidence. The simple fact of the matter is that there are some things, in fact many things, that Apple does exceptionally well. Knowing that about themselves is not saying ‘we are elite, we are better than everyone else.’

      • rmagruder

        Absolutely, they should tout their success and market the heck out of their products. I’m not saying they shouldn’t. But they take it ‘way too far’ as you put it. I watch the Apple keynotes, I read the interviews with their people, and I hear the attitude reflected by some (by far not all) of their fans. Daring Fireball (who linked to this) is a great example. John Gruber is the Thurston Howell the 3rd of fans (yes, I’m dating myself with a Gilligan’s Island) reference. And it’s the attitude that Apple tries hard to cultivate. Stereotypes may sometimes go to far, but they don’t just materialize out of nowhere. What makes it even funnier is that in so many ways, the last several years Apple has been copying one feature or another from Android or Windows Phone as they try to keep up. And usually when they do it, there is language like “this wasn’t worth doing until WE did it because WE know how it should be done”. Again, not putting words in anyone’s mouth here. I can cite chapter and verse that this is the way they talk.

      • James

        I think you’ve applied a narrative to the facts rather than the other way around. I have to say I think John Gruber is exceptionally fair-minded. He is quite happy to criticise Apple when it’s wrong and mitigates his praise when necessary. He likes Apple, admires it, but he isn’t irrational in my opinion.

        Apple is bound to downplay rivals’ features. That’s business. You can’t hold that against companies cause they all do it.

        I simply cannot agree with you that iOS has aped WP or Android. The very pride you so loathe in Apple probably means they hardly pay any attention to what Android is doing. Some features like Notification Centre might have arrived on Android first, but they were always going to come to iOS at some point, it’s pedantic to cry foul every time a feature lags behind on one OS or the other and it catches up. It’s probably for the best that Android lovers keep their heads down on the aping thing, we all know what Android looked like before 2007 and then after!!

      • rmagruder

        Well, I’ve had some back and forth with Gruber, and I’ve seen him be VERY selective with his facts, in order to ensure the ‘narrative’ is preserved. But that’s another debate for another time. I read his page every day to see what Apple’s ‘baghdad bob’ is going to say, and it’s entertaining, and I’m sure he appreciates the clicks, and enjoys pushing the buttons of people like me, so it’s all good.

        As to iOS not copying Android pretty slavishly?

        I’m sure it’s all coincidence , right? Especially the lock screen wallpaper!

        Anyway, don’t get me wrong. I firmly believe there are very very few original ideas out there. Everyone copies from everyone, always has and always will. Good ideas can and should be copied. You win on execution, not ideas. Apple has traditionally executed very well, and deserves a ton of praise for it. I do not credit them for inventing anything with the iPhone, because there’s nothing new there. What they DID was take ideas that were out there, in very crappy products that didn’t catch on, and find a way to engineer it into a very nice experience, a very good whole, and market it and put the Apple logo on it and take those ideas mainstream and make them the dominant paradigm. Without Apple, we wouldn’t have the great mobile computing environment we have, because THEY made it trendy and popular and fun. Kudos to them for that. They executed, they marketed, and I hope they keep doing that. Even if were possible, I honestly do NOT want Android to take down Apple. We NEED a healthy competition of at least two companies to drive the mobile experiences forward. I also don’t expect Apple to be ‘humble’. I just sometimes wish they weren’t so over the top with it that it becomes ludicrous and funny. It’s almost like they believe their own PR. And then of course there’s the attempts to sue everyone else into oblivion, but that’s another discussion.

      • James

        You look at those images and see copying, I truly don’t. For starters, the multitasking UI in iOS7 is almost IDENTICAL to the tab switching UI in Safari. That predates Android’s entire touch-screen existence.

        I’m astonished you don’t think the iPhone was an original idea. It was game-changing. I have never in my life seen a product come out that was that far ahead of its time. I think you’re being unfair.

        I agree on principle that there are few original ideas left and that moaning about copying is often a fool’s fame (not always, as you can always copy someone’s direction even if the technology used to go in that direction is not new. Look at Samsung’s leaked 150+ page dossier on how to copy iOS for a clear example.) I don’t think Apple needs to be humble. It’s the trend setting company atm and its products are best in class and dominate their markets’ high-end price brackets. It has a lot to feel smug about. It’s like asking the Yankies not to feel proud of winning the World Series. It’s just how it is.

        On a side note, I see this marketing thing dropped in a lot. People seem to have a notion that a lot of Apple’s success is good marketing. Samsung spends 20-odd times more on promotion than Apple. Apple knows that over time, quality speaks for itself. That’s a GREAT thing for consumers.

      • rmagruder

        James, I can’t help you if you don’t see the amazing similarity in the images. I have to wonder, if the shoe was on the other foot, whether you wouldn’t be screaming ‘copycats!’.

        The iPhone was not the first touch screen mobile phone. It wasn’t the first to recognize gestures. It wasn’t the first with apps (I say this as an original Palm Pilot user). There’s very little with the iPhone that I didn’t do with a prior device. Sorry, but that’s just the truth. That’s the reason that many Apple patents are being invalidated now at the USPTO upon reexamination. They were not as original as touted. They were evolutions of existing ideas, they were refinements, and they were great. But what they were NOT was new. Apple took a niche category of touch screen devices, saw how other people had failed to make them the experience they wanted, and did it RIGHT, and they had the branding and advertising muscle post-iPod to make it an immediate hit. As much as you might like to say this is just my opinion, if you spend a little time doing homework, you’ll find it’s all out there. These are facts. There’s really nothing in the individual parts that is an apple ‘invention’. But they deserve all the props in the world for pulling those things together, refining and optimizing them, and making them attractive and fun to use and all that. That’s not nothing. It’s big, and I will eternally be grateful to Apple for pushing the ball so far down the field. But they don’t get to re-write history, either. It was game-changing, yes, because they made other peoples’ failures and unrealized ideas into something great.

        I will not excuse Samsung’s copying. They went too far in trying to precisely ape the Apple visual appearance of both the hardware and software. I have no problem with there being some punishment for that for Samsung.

        As for the marketing comment. Ask yourself this. If Sony, or LG or Nokia had released the iPhone, do you think it would have caught fire the same and changed the game? If you’re being fair, I think you’d say no. A great product is NOT enough. Apple had the advantage of having built iTunes and iPod brands and making the iPhone the next step to build on that ecosystem. Then they added app development support. They did what they needed to do to build the brand, and make people BELIEVE in the brand. Look at the Palm Pre series. Great device….went NOWHERE. Even poor Microsoft’s Windows Phone OS is actually really good in many respects, but it can’t get customer-love. BRANDING is as important as the device. And sometimes the best device doesn’t win. Apple has a lot of people that would buy just about anything with an Apple logo on the back, sight unseen, because of that trust. Apple has a very respected BRAND, and that means that anything they sell will have a built-in success rate exceeding those of a competitor, even if the competitor has a comparable offering. Samsung has HAD to put zillions into advertising to try to CREATE that brand and catch-up.

      • James

        I think you are giving Apple WAY too much credit for where they were in 2007. The iPod was small potatoes next to the iPhone and iPad. And the original iPod was successful even through released by a company on its knees. Apple did build a brand, but it did it by being true to that brand’s image and building high quality products. If all companies did that, we’d live in a better consumer world.

      • rmagruder

        That’s called ‘growth’. But in 2007 iPod was everywhere. We had the iPod, the iPod mini, the iPod shuffle, we had iPods in every color etc. Even though (familiar refrain) Apple didn’t come anywhere near inventing mp3 players, they became synonymous with iPods. Yeah, they had a big brand. In many ways, the iPhone was the evolution of the iPod. A music device that was now a phone and could also run some basic PDA apps (remember, initially there was no app store or apps beyond what Apple provided).

      • Daniel1900

        I think you see invention and branding differently than I do.
        Inventions don’t fall from the sky fully formed, they are often modifications of existing ideas. This doesn’t mean that they lack novelty or ingenuity or are without value. Modifying many things to work together better is often harder than just starting from scratch or just continuing to do what everyone else is doing. In recent years Apple has done both very well. Reimagining products like the iMac, iPod, iPhone and iPad so that they are much better than the sum of their parts.
        Also branding is not what I would call the appstore, ios sdk or itunes credit card infrastructure. I would call those things part of making a great product. They influence the brand by increasing or decreasing the delight that customers take from the product. The brand doesn’t force people to buy, it encourages the customers to remember the great things the company has brought them before and judge whether that is likely to continue.
        All that said, I did find the ios7 previews to be a bit samey with regards to Android. I think Apple can do better.

      • rmagruder

        I never said or meant to imply that Apple’s work lacked value. I simply stated that the basic ideas were not their own. They were taken from niche, failed products, unrealized ideas, and from obvious interactions and put into software. That Apple tried to patent these ideas as being their own and belonging to them is where the absurdity comes in. The idea that somehow sliding a finger right to left on a touch screen to turn a virtual page is somehow patentable. The idea that slide unlock gesture is an amazing innovative thing (which by the way they were not first at, and it also imitates slide bolts on a door), is ridiculous. Apple tried to patent things which were often nothing more than obvious things to do. Granted they had not been done WELL before, or in exactly that WAY, but that’s where I differentiate an idea from a specific implementation of that idea. The patent system is corrupted. If you still don’t believe me, go look up a patent for making toast. It exists…and GOT THROUGH the patent office intact!

      • “I never said or meant to imply that Apple’s work lacked value. I simply stated that the basic ideas were not their own. They were taken from niche, failed products, unrealized ideas, and from obvious interactions and put into software.”

        That is almost universally true on inventions. In one sentence, you claim not to have implied Apple’s work lacks value and then in the next belittle all of their accomplishments outright.

        And yes, Apple was the first to have a slide to unlock with visual feedback.

      • Daniel1900

        You have stated repeatedly that some of Apple’s works are ridiculous, obvious and derivative. That certainly meets my definition of questioning their value.
        I also find it offensive that you consider “Slide to unlock” ridiculous and obvious. In my opinion whoever first moved the gesture from the physical to the digital realm deserves credit for that, and Apple deserves credit for doing it so well. Popularizing a technology or idea can also be valuable. (For instance Android developers deserve credit for the gesture passwords and swype keyboards even if they might not have become so popular or widely accepted without the widespread use of “slide to unlock” or the original iphone keyboard)
        I have to agree that the US patents system is utterly broken though. It is clearly one of the reasons so many companies like Apple have to patent ever last little thing, just so they can use them offensively or defensively if necessary. A very sad state of affairs.

      • templewolf

        Your looking at branding in a very negative way and only focusing on product design when its so much more than that. Consumers don’t want to take risks, brands speak to many things like the durability, will there be third party software development, if it breaks can i get it fixed, if there is a warranty will they honor it, will it get software updates. With a new product from Apple, consumers have confidence, more confidence than any other brand. Just look at windows phone 7, barely a year after it was released they moved onto Windows phone 8 and apps were not backwards compatible. Google is better but the OEMs are not. You can argue that a device is better, or an OS is superior, but its hard to argue that there is company that supports its products better than Apple.

      • And is this different than Bezos announcing the Fire and the bragging he did there. or Developers, developers, developers, developers… The point of keynotes is to brag and show pride in what your company has done.

      • rmagruder

        By the way, remember when Steve Jobs mocked, yes mocked Android 7″ tablets as “dead on arrival” and made jokes about how having a smaller tablet than the iPad would require you to sand your fingers down? Yeah, pretty condescending. Of course, how did that end…. They made the iPad mini and now it is cannibalizing iPad sales. How a out mocking e-readers with “no one reads books anymore” one year later iBooks was released and it was “awesome”. Neither of the above examples was me putting words in anyone’s mouth.

      • James

        Many of that crop of tablets were absolutely DOA to be fair. Nobody who knows Steve Jobs’ career well would deny that he happily changed his mind and that at any given time he would mock what he later came to like. Steve Jobs is a person, Apple is a company. Steve Jobs wants the iMac to be called MacMan; he changed his mind. One man’s genius being accompanied by caprice does not make Apple this hateful, smug entity that so many build it into. It just stops you enjoying the great work that so many hyper-talented people put into Apple products.

      • rmagruder

        If they were DOA because they just weren’t good tablets and he wanted to bash them on build-quality or what-have-you, that’s fine. But that’s NOT why he bashed ’em. He bashed them because he believed, and stated loud and proud, that the iPad screen size was the MINIMUM size, and that all Apple’s studies had proved it. And yes, I’ve read the Bio, and I know what you’re saying. But as they say, the fish rots from the head, and the attitude at the top seeps down. It’s part of corporate culture. Also, I don’t think rank-and-file Apple employees are evil, awful people. I do think that their PR front is basically elitist in nature. For what it’s worth, I think their products are ‘sexy’ as far as gadgets can be so. The iPad Mini and iPhone 5 look very nice. The downside is that you never really get to appreciate the sexiness of the device because you need to slap it into an otterbox to protect it. First, the glass of the iPhone 4 on both sides shattered regularly, and then the metal of the iPhone 5 is very prone to denting and scratching. The Nexus 7 case from last year didn’t look nearly as attractive, but I never really wanted to use it in a case, and never felt like it would get scuffed up if I didn’t. Sometimes there’s more to things than the surface appearance.

      • James

        I feel I need to point out that sadly Steve Jobs had been dead for over a year when the iPad Mini was announced so calling him a hypocrite on it is perhaps unfair.

        Apple goes for premium with its PR, and that always carries a risk of looking elitist. Just like Rolex or Rolls-Royce, it’s hard to have a premium brand without it ever looking a little aloof. The difference it that frequently Apple’s prices aren’t all that premium compared to competitors. For a good while after the iPad launched in 2010 it was actually the cheapest tablet on the market owing to Apple’s huge prepaid component deals that nobody else could match at the time.

        I think protecting nice looking things with cases is a mentality. I don’t do it as when you think about it properly for a while you see it’s stupid. Why have a beautiful thing that you never get to enjoy? My iPhone 5 is a little scuffed but doesn’t bother me in the slightest. I’d rather a glass/metal phone that maybe gets a scuff or two in the 2 years I have it than a plastic monstrosity like the SGS phones. It’s like buying an old banger car so you don’t worry about parking it. I just enjoy it and sell it after 2 years, often for twice what a contemporary Android phone is worth at that same age. I got £180 for my iPhone 3G with a smashed screen, £200 for my iPhone 4. Neither were in cases. I enjoyed them and passed them on.

      • rmagruder

        James, re: the iPad mini — that is true. Valid point. He wasn’t gone when iBooks came out though.

        As far as Apple’s prices not being premium….do you REALLY think that there should be a $100 difference between a 16gb and 32gb iPad Mini? $100 for an extra 16gb of memory??????? (FWIW, the difference is $40 for the new Nexus 7).

        I will also agree with you that a typical iOS device has held its value better than an equivalent Android device. I think there’s a lot of reasons for that, though…some of which are being addressed with the latest crop of phones. We’ll see what happens. Android before 4.1 and Android after 4.1 are so night and day different it’s really almost worth just forgetting about any Android phone before 4.1 and leaving it out of the discussion.

        My Galaxy Nexus is no longer in a case ( though it has a screen protector.) For the new Nexus 7, I bought a nicely padded travel sleeve rather than a case you always have on. I just like the beautiful, thin and light Nexus 7 so much more. i don’t want it wrapped in anything unless I’m on the go. But I do see LOTS of iPhones in meetings at work, 2-3 times as thick with otterboxes and what-not on them. It makes me sad. On THAT we can agree. But still, it’s nicer still when the device itself isn’t so prone to looking beat-up because of its design, and the Nexus 7 backing last year was absolutely FANTASTIC in that regard. Grippy ‘soft’ black ‘glove-like’ plastic on the back that you never felt would look any worse for the wear.

      • templewolf

        The durability of the products is one of the biggest misconceptions. I have a 2008 IPod Touch which has never seen a case and has been used by two toddlers, dropped hundreds of times and is still going strong. Sure if you drop it on concrete, it will crack the screen, but they all use Corning Gorilla Glass, so no manufacturer has an advantage in display durability.

      • templewolf

        The durability of the products is one of the biggest misconceptions. I have a 2008 IPod Touch which has never seen a case and has been used by two toddlers, dropped hundreds of times and is still going strong. Sure if you drop it on concrete, it will crack the screen, but they all use Corning Gorilla Glass, so no manufacturer has an advantage in display durability.

      • rmagruder

        I had a case for my 2012 Nexus 7. It was, I thought, a very good case with good protection. I handed it to my wife (in the case with the case closed) while she was sitting in a chair in a room with a tile floor. It slipped and fell, maybe 1.5-2 feet. It cracked the bottom left of the screen and rendered the bottom inch of the touch panel unresponsive (though the underlying display was fine). That was enough for me. It cost more to fix than to replace! So with the 2013 Nexus 7 I got for my b’day, I got the extended Walmart 2 year warranty that covers broken glass, drops, spills, etc for all of $28. And then I got a heavily padded sleeve case so I could have the joy of taking the product out and using it as intended, while still having some peace of mind while running around with it.

      • Walt French

        Yes, DOA. We just see recently that Motorola has abandoned the “Xoom” brand as not worth the battle with the firm that owns the name.

        But I suppose what doomed those efforts is exactly what drives sales of other devices—not just an unfortunate choice of a name. The Xoom was incomplete, especially on its standout feature, the Flash interpreter that nVidia worked so hard to put into the Tegra 2 silicon. Another headline feature, high-speed networking, never made it either.

        So bad hardware and bad software. Regards the bad software, it’s worth noting that Jobs’s “rant” about the 7″ form factor was that apps had to be tuned to the device:

        While one could increase the resolution to make up some of the difference, it is meaningless unless your tablet also includes sandpaper, so that the user can sand down their fingers to around one-quarter of their present size. Apple has done expensive user testing on touch interfaces over many years, and we really understand this stuff.

        There are clear limits of how close you can place physical elements on a touch screen, before users cannot reliably tap, flick or pinch them. This is one of the key reasons we think the 10-inch screen size is the minimum size required to create great tablet apps.

        This is WAAAY different from claiming that the size per se was a problem. In fact, Google only a year or so later came out with the self-deprecatingly named “fragment manager” that adjusted layouts for the ridiculous range of devices; when Jobs made the comment there were over 200 different devices for developers to test against, and tweaking layouts would necessarily be down the list.

        Go ahead and list Apple shortcomings; you won’t find anybody claiming in such a dynamic market that there are no missteps. But remember that Apple didn’t invent the smartphone, it made it practical by a portfolio of innovations that included practical pinch-to-zoom, many-hour (potentially, all day) battery life made possible by restricting OSX’s inherent multitasking, and streamlined out features to get the OS to fit within mobile constraints.

        Since Androids up until 2010 were awful, slow, balky and hard to use, it’s fair to say that in the 2007 technology framework (e.g., 0.3GHz single-core CPUs and 128MB RAM), it would’ve been impossible to have taken the Android approach and deliver a working product with the features that we now take for granted.

        Apple’s finickiness brought the modern smartphone into being years before anybody else would’ve—or did. Google partisans are welcome to claim that their catch-up, not quite tuned up knockoff was actually better because careful watching of an app monitor would keep you from running down the battery, while your apps ran in background whether you wanted or not. But it’s just spin to everybody else.

      • Funny, he said that 2 years before the Android 7 came out.

      • Kizedek

        Nice straw men.

        The tablets being criticized were 7in at 16:9 ratio. The iPad Mini is 7.9 at 4:3 — has significantly larger area, closer to the 9.7 in iPad in screen area than to the DOA tablets.

        Steve was lamenting the fact that no-one reads any more, not laughing at it. He was saying that for them a whole product dedicated to reading was not justified — and Amazon’s model as a loss leader was especially the wrong approach. Therefore, iBooks is an app on a profitable general purpose computing device, not a whole loss-leading device on its own. …in fact, the iPod, a *music player* is now, what? The Touch, representing the only growth in the line, is a general purpose computing device that, guess what, you can read books on… and do a whole lot more on than the Kindle (including use the Kindle app)!

      • rmagruder

        That is a very, very interesting way of trying to get into Steve Jobs’ mind. Of course, you can’t back any of it up. You basically just spun what he said to fit what you think he thought. But okay, your crystal ball is just as good as mine, I guess. Believe what you will.

      • Kizedek

        And I suppose you have an interesting way of trying to get into the minds of Messrs. Page, Brin and Schmidt. I am still wary of the outrageous arrogance of their hubris of entitlement to the whole internet, and their complete and unabashed effrontery and presumption in using me and my personal data as a product.

        See, I can make declarations like that all day long, too.

        So, believe what you will, but what do we really have to go on? The actions and characters of the men involved, and the products they produce as a result.

      • The 7″ Android tablets at the time were all DOA. Every single one but don’t let facts get in the way of a good rant. But let’s look at your post in two points:

        “2. It is better to deny a user the ability to do something at all than to require competence on their part to figure out how to do it.”

        — AND —

        “4. Android users are illiterate peasants. Mock them.”

        Simply do not make sense in the same post. In the second one, you are implying Apple users lack competence so that is why they choose Apple products. In the second example you are implying Apple users see Apple products requiring higher skill levels to use and would be beyond Android users.

        This is the standard “Apple Hate” mentality people talk about.

      • rmagruder

        Steven, you went wrong. Let me show you the underlying assumption that made you go wrong.

        First, at no point did I imply that Apple users lack competence. You aren’t reading English correctly. In Context, the point was to say what Apple’s corporate mentality is. E.g. what they THINK of their users. It does not logically follow that I am stating that Apple is CORRECT in so thinking. My assertion only goes to the state of mind in Apple design thinking. See the difference? Logic fail. I made no aspersion on Apple customers. I did make an aspersion on the condescending opinions I think Apple designers have of their customers. It is an important difference.

        On the second point, item 4. This isn’t so much directly on Apple as much as on its more rabid followers. E.g. your Grubers and Arments, who go on and on about engagement, and talk about how Apple customers are ‘better’ customers, and make very elitist comments insinuating that Android users are dummies who are too poor or too stupid to appreciate the fine craftsmanship that is an Apple product. If you’ve read stuff online, you’ve seen this attitude over and over and over. My aspersion on Apple was that somehow with the way they behave they sort of encourage this kind of mentality.

        There is no contradiction between the two. It simply is the way Apple thinks of its customers, and the way the more rabid, extreme partisans on the Apple side treat anyone who didn’t also choose an iOS device.

        I hope I’ve cleared this up for you.

      • Kizedek

        “E.g. your Grubers and Arments, who go on and on about engagement, and talk about how Apple customers are ‘better’ customers,”

        “engagement”, “better customers”. Hmm, perhaps Gruber and Arment are speaking as developers. D’ja think of that?

        Again, instead of defensively getting your panties in a twist about *your* perception of how *they* are speaking down to *you*, why don’t you engage with the issues and see what it is that apparently makes it easier to *be* a better, more engaged customer on iOS?

        Hint: Apple’s obsessive and demanding drive for excellence, from every aspect of its hardware to its APIs.

      • rmagruder

        Hint: The last sentence reads like you work for Apple in PR.

      • Kizedek

        Apple obviously don’t need to spend much on PR because long-term users feel it to be true.

        But, more to the point, why shouldn’t it or couldn’t it be true? It must be true of someone. A lot of freelance designers I know are dependent on striving to be the best they can be so as to differentiate themselves and take some pride in their work. A lot of workmen of all sorts take pride in their craft and in their tools. Perhaps these are the “better”, “more engaged” customers you so snidely dismiss.

        You seem to live in a terribly cynical world… but having had to “engage” at different points with MS and Google myself and deal with frustrated individuals who are fully entangled, I can understand it to some degree. Pity though. Sorry, for the snobby way that may have come out.

      • rmagruder

        It’s okay. I have NO problems with the Apple customer who just prefers their products and thinks their great. If anyone comes away from this thinking I’m bashing typical Apple customers I’m really not. I just don’t like the idea that seems to be pushed that there’s only one “good” way to do something, Apple invented it and patented it, and everyone else is either doing it wrong or being a copycat. THAT is the mentality that rubs people like me the wrong way. Especially as a former iOS device owner who was endlessly frustrated at the walls I would run into trying to do something, only to basically run into Apple saying “NO. You can’t do it, and more to the point, we don’t think you should be ABLE to do it”.

      • I fundamentally disagree on many levels with your assessment. Apple design assumes people do not want to hassle with things to make them work. Period. This is very different than Apple assuming their user base is incompetent. I EXPECT Apple designers to actually design and that means making decisions on how things work. Likewise this means there are compromises. You knew the MS Surface tablets were going to be failures when MS referred to them as “no compromise designs”. There is no such thing and if you think otherwise, you have no concept of what your end product is trying to do.

        And from a business standpoint, yes Apple customers are better customers. How else do you explain the massive difference in engagement and profit when comparing iOS to any other mobile platforms?

        1) either the market share numbers are WAY WAY wrong.


        2) iOS users are more engaged with using their device. Note: there is a potential negative social aspect to this but that is different from a business aspect.

        Most of your posts have lacked much insight and simply echo memes you can read from Engadget.

      • James

        “Methinks the lady doth protest too much”

        A child could take apart your response, but I think you know this already, so I’ll merely observe that conceding a point in an argument would make you look better is better than this incoherent rant.

      • mhikl

        FacsimileSam and Goolies have troops of trolls baiting on all Apple sites. F&G often repeat the same sludge the trolls do. Strange, Gollies finance has few posts on Apple when shares are up. The rest of the time, anything bad makes the grade. Wonder what ‘Do No Evil’ actually means in Goolies Speak?

    • kevinkee

      I am sorry but I am completely disagree with all four points. Just to summarize:
      1. For instance, iOS 7 beta has been revamped many times because of feedback from outside of Apple.
      2. Jailbreak is not punishable, and for the typical users it is not even needed.
      3. We are business – and all of business people acted the same. It’s just whether you choose to be hypocrite about it or not.
      4. There are much higher number of Apple haters than the other way.

    • MarkS2002

      3&4. We are IT professionals. We make our living dealing with the flaws in Windows. We speak a language too arcane for the regular people. Others in our company treat us like geniuses. We like the adoration. We buy Android in order to create our own personalized phone. We use that customization to further impress our acquaintances. We are the elites. When we meet someone with an iDevice, we sneer at them.

    • Fnordius

      Point One could be summed up with “don’t develop for some nebulous customer, develop a device that you yourself would want.” Your other points mock Apple device users, but don’t reflect the developers’ values.

      Sorry, but you sound like an engineer whose application to work for Apple got rejected. (Disclaimer: I do not work for Apple or Google, and never have)

  • DarwinPhish

    Can’t wait to read what “Microsoftiness” means.

  • Larry

    Microsftiness means:
    1. Doing the good enough thing.
    2. Striving for market share.
    3. Keeping eyes averted to reality.
    4. Being reactive.
    5. Going nowhere.
    6. Doing what the pundits say to do.
    7. Talk about how Windows is beloved.
    8. Valuing value.
    9. If at first one doesn’t succeed, keep failing.
    10. Talk as much as possible about future products.
    11. Talk as much as possible about no compromises.
    12. Have Steve Ballmer provide fodder for mocking.

  • poke

    This has me picturing Google as a ever-smiling True Believer enthusiastically handing out pamphlets to passers-by and Apple as a self-mortifying flagellant locked in his chambers doing penance. I think that captures the difference in their values.

    • rmagruder

      Google creeps me out sometimes. 🙁

      • James

        We agree on that!

  • Googliness also seems to mean providing funding for Republican climate change deniers. Until they stop that kind of evil, I can’t take any of that list seriously.

  • airmanchairman

    Samsunginess, anyone? Or should it be Samsmugness?

    • Padova44

      Horations can have fun with your bringing up Samsung. Samsungness: Copy Apple, Deny Copying Apple, Copy Apple, Deny Copying Apple. One gets the picture.

  • kundera

    Being humble, and letting go of the ego – I’d say “Leaving your ego at home when you come to work” for Appleiness for that.

  • Josiah Smith

    Apple can be summed up with 2 concepts

    1) It’s not a feature anyone wants or needs until WE release it
    2) We market and sell magic, and despite huge markups , people will buy it.

    People who own Apple products might see a feature from something else, but they don’t think it’s needed until Apple introduces it. It’s stunning how some of my family and friends crap on features I have until Apple introduces it. Multitasking on a phone? Why would I need it? Notification bar? Different sized screens? Stupid. “Apple told me in a keynote that the iPad is the perfect size. Oh, look at the iPad Mini! I’m going to get that for my wife! “

    • rant

      I don’t really see what this has to do with the article, but I guess you’re angry and are looking for a comment field to rant into.

    • sdbryan

      It’s really tiresome to read this particular bit of misinformation so I’ll waste just a little time trying to correct it. The OS running on the iPhone has always been multitasking. ALWAYS. If you did not know that then you should not be commenting on technical issues. What it hasn’t always done is allow multiple user facing apps to run at the same time. The underlying OS is essentially OS X, i.e. a variant of Unix. How could it not be multitasking?

      They did not initially allow multiple user apps to run simultaneously because of the disastrous effect on battery life. As iOS has matured it has been possible to relax that condition in the API’s in a way that provides a good user experience for battery life. Any putz can promote all manner of features if there is no concern for user experience. When Apple first demoed the iPhone the legend was that RIM executives dismissed it as a “fake” since no one could do what Apple was showing and have decent battery life.

    • Space Gorilla

      Disappointing that the ‘Apple suckz’ crowd has found Asymco.

      • rmagruder

        Apple products are very good. I don’t know where we’d all be without their contributions. No matter what other criticisms I have with the company, I wouldn’t want them gone. I just wish they behaved a bit differently in some areas.

      • Space Gorilla

        You know what I wish? That you hadn’t found Asymco.

      • rmagruder

        Sorry if discussions aren’t your thing.

      • Space Gorilla

        Intelligent discussion is one of my favorite things. Unfortunately ‘Apple suckz’ doesn’t qualify. Please pollute some other site. Honestly, please.

      • rmagruder

        If you can find me saying “Apple suckz” or anything reasonably close, let me know.

      • Space Gorilla

        Most of your comments here can be summed up as ‘Apple suckz’. You haven’t contributed a single intelligent thing. Congrats, you’re the new obarthelemy.

      • rmagruder

        Most of your comments here can be summed up as “you suck”. No high ground for you.

      • Space Gorilla

        Well, I strive for truth.

      • Space Gorilla

        By the way, ruining what is normally a very intelligent, reasonable, logical comment thread is the apotheosis of sucking. I’m sure you’re a fine human being, but your posts on Asymco do suck, your comments are tiresome, boring, not insightful, redundant, predictable, immature, and mostly just disappointing.

    • Walt French

      Stunning that you ding the first practical pocket computer for all the hard work that it took to ensure it had acceptable battery life. Until 2010’s Froyo release, all Android phones had dramatically shorter performance spans because of the extra effort to keep multiple threads of poorly-interpreted code running.

      Back in the pre-OSX days, multi-tasking on a Mac was indeed awful, an architectural limitation spelled out on the first page of the Mac programmer manual, to allow a 5MHz, 64kB system to have a real GUI. iOS was obviously designed from the start to have multi-tasking, most of which had to be hidden from app developers to allow an affordable, usable computer in 2007.

      A quick check with Google finds forums and blogs—complaints and tips about short battery life at least thru 2011. One of the tips was pretty much always to use some app to kill no-longer-needed apps. Despite this, Google was still fighting stalls and balkiness from its GC until the most recent devices that have the highest-powered CPU SOCs. I think that Android’s Dalvik VM is a very nice piece of engineering, but it is Android’s Achilles Heel in that it guarantees higher resource usage and for a long time was responsible for a crummy user experience.

      So next time you are tempted to write “we market and sell magic at huge markups,” remember that many people will remember that the same treatment produces, “Google produces quick-and-dirty products that are pretty well guaranteed to deliver a bad user experience for many of its customers.”

      Your example is merely evidence of how uncritically you’ve swallowed pro-Android propaganda.

    • jbwales

      “Apple told me in a keynote that the iPad is the perfect size.”

      No. They said it was the perfect ASPECT RATIO.
      And they’re absolutely right. 4:3 provides a far, far more usable area than the 16:9 aspect ratio most other tablets employ – unless you want to spend all your time watching wide screen movies!

  • Nostrildamus

    I wish that Appleiness included “Doing everything for the user” but that can’t be universally true. If it was, for example, you would be able to set any song in your iTunes library as your alarm clock, a feature which even 6 year old Blackberries had.

    • stormchild

      Not sure if you’re dense or just trolling, but iOS has had that feature for years.

    • LRLee

      Go to your clock, tap on alarm, tap on Edit, tap on the alarm you want to modify (the “>” symbol), tap on Sound, scroll to the top where you should see a section for Songs, tap on pick a song, select something other than John Cage’s 4’33” and there you go.

      • rmagruder

        I’m asking honestly because I don’t know – has Apple added the ability to set your ringtone through any arbitrary mp3 on the device? Or do you have to go to iTunes and buy a ringtone? It used to be you used to have to buy a ringtone, and certainly editing an mp3 and saying “set this snippet as my ringtone” was not possible.

      • DrDave8563

        rmagruder, you can use GarageBand to create a ringtone out of a snippet of an MP3 on your phone, then set that as the ringtone you wish to use globally or for any specific caller in your contacts list. I’ve made dozens of them. I’m sorry I don’t have a direct link to the instructions, and I just know how to do it when I get in there and do it, so can’t even spell the steps out for you here. A search for “garage band ringtone from mp3” or something like that should find some help for you, though.

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  • JReuben1

    I’d like to see what ‘Microsoftiness’ means …

    • Dennis Baker

      Its a short list, it starts and ends with “Watch your back”

  • Marc

    Just got to reading this and for you sports fans out there, being somewhat a student of the New England Patriots, the descriptors struck me as also the difference between them and much of the NFL.


    Keeping both eyes on your task = Team motto: “Just Do Your Job”

    Striving for greatness = “Always get better each day”

    Valuing functions other than your own = “Put team first”

    Being Obsessive = Being Obsessive

    Keeping your Mouth shut = Keeping your Mouth shut

    Keeping your mouth shut = Keeping your Mouth shut

    Keeping your Mouth shut = Keeping your Mouth shut

  • Geoff

    Apple sounds like a horrifying work environment. Keep your mouth shut, keep your head down, and if you fail you will be punished. Cool that they get to work on great products – but is it worth the dehumanizing muzzle?

    • Kizedek

      I suppose it’s no different than many focused, pressured work environments… like law firms or Michelin Starred Restaurants. What’s dehumanizing is politics in the workplace, like we hear about with MS, where you are constantly up for review at the expense of your colleagues. What’s dehumanizing is having no clear focus and not knowing whether your efforts make a difference or not. What’s dehumanizing is having leadership (or lack of leadership) that doesn’t have a clue about technologies, strategies or the issues involved in each job under them.

      But as far as actual work environment goes, don’t worry. I am sure Apple has plenty of comfy chairs and sunlight, and let’s it staff have breaks; so don’t feel too bad for its poor muzzled workforce. Good grief, you make it sound like being chained to a bench on a Roman galley.

      • Geoff

        Being like Apple doesn’t make law firms or Michelin Starred Restaurants – or Roman galley’s – a great place to go to work every day. Comfy chairs and sunlight and coffee breaks don’t make a great workplace either. The internal culture of the company is at the heart of any great workplace. Lack of leadership is indeed a huge factor in this equation. And the whole era of ‘rank and yank’ that was popularized by Microsoft and GE has pretty much died a well-deserved death. But, again, it’s the culture (and every single workplace has a culture despite what @obarthelemy:disqus would like to believe) that dictates how people operate at work. And, going purely on the list published here by our friend, Mr. Dediu, (though this was probably done entirely in jest – nonetheless, a kernel of truth…) it is a list the paints a clear picture: Google values the well-being of the people who work there. Apple values the quality of its devices.

      • Kizedek

        Definitely true. What I am saying is that the reason for going to work at Apple is probably a lot clearer than most places. If you are going to work 80 hours a week at a law firm, you have a clear idea you want to get to the top or something. If you get shouted at by a chef all day long, you have a clear idea you want to develop your talent and open your own restaurant one day.

        And some people thrive on being responsible for a certain task. You don’t go to work for the best technology company in the world and wake up one day and say, “gee, I didn’t know it would be this tough.”

      • I have had the opportunity to know 2 people that have worked at both Apple and Google and each of their tales were similar. The work environment at Google was much lower stress but more frustrating. Apple’s environment was more stressful (on call 24/7) but more rewarding.

        At Google, many had no clear reporting structure and many turned their 20% project time into 40-60%. The food was great, the perks many and often you could not look back 5 years and point to a single accomplishment people would recognize. This led to the frustrating.

        At Apple, you were always, what felt like, in a pressure cooker to get the next project done. Everyone was very focused on what they had to do and everyone knew exactly who they reported to. But then, at the end of 18-36 months you got to release a product that more often than not got rave reviews. This led to rewarding.

        Personally, I would want something in the middle of these two extremes.

      • Geoff

        Concur. Thanks for the perspective.

    • For some who stay yes, for others who leave, no.

  • obarthelemy

    In the end, I find this search for values wildly over the top.

    First, it’s mainly fluff. Focus-grouped newspeak designed to resonate with punters. Similar to what politics have become.

    Second, believing that corps have values, that these values are imbued in their products, and that using these products informs who you are… My nephew does that with his spiderman underwear, but at 7, he’s got an excuse.

    Apple and Google are corps. Corpiness means 1- making money 2- positioning to make more money.

    • neutrino23

      I have to disagree. Without commenting on Apple vs. Google, I have visited many companies because of my job. I have been struck at how many companies have their own personalities and how these personalities persist for decades even as personnel change. We may debate the nature of these personalities and whether the internal personality differs from the external face of the company but we can’t ignore that they exist. Some months back the Economist ran a similar opinion piece speculating that the mission statement of a company can affect whether it survives or not. Very interesting ideas.

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  • Jeff G

    I think Appleiness also means:

    “Innovation” happens at an organic pace. That’s part of their innovation. They don’t change just for the sake of change. Product releases are driven by a unique intersection of need, technology, and affordability, with heavy consideration on design, speed and simplicity. Although every Apple disruption is innovative, not every innovative change is disruptive. Many mistake their wisdom for lack of innovation.

  • Janet Williams

    After my last five trips to the “genius” bar, I would most definitely dispute the notion that Apple does “everything for the user.” That’s just false. They go through a checklist and get you out of there as soon as possible, problem solved or not. This company’s fallen a long way in a short time.

    • obarthelemy

      Human resources are a b*tch. I used to get mad at demotivated or incompetent people, especially public servants, but then I had to participate in the hiring process in my company. Weeding those 2 profiles out is extremely time consuming, especially when you’re growing fast and are both very busy and in a hurry to fill vacancies.

      And then you’ve got the maintenance / training phase…

      There is a low-hanging fruit of nice, efficient, competent workforce, but not that many… structuring a company to be able to work satisfactorily with the *other* type of employees is a major puzzle.

    • Emanuel

      That is just not true. I had a genius spend north of an hour with me after a new iphone 4s failed, just after the iphone 5 came out (I bought it before the iphone 5 came out). He finally replaced the iphone 4s and restored it from icloud. This experience was nothing less than any other apple store experience since they opened. Maybe, janet, you are going in there with silly problems… i’ve only gone with huge problems, and t hey have been lifesavers.

    • Space Gorilla

      My experience has been the opposite. I had an iMac with an odd software issue and they spent three hours figuring it out and fixing it, and only billed me the original half hour that was quoted. I’ve had many other positive experiences with Apple service over the years. There will always be customers with negative experiences, but customer satisfaction data tells us clearly that Apple is doing very well on this front. Is Apple perfect? Of course not, but it is quite a stretch to frame it as Apple failing on the customer service front.

    • Walt French

      I work in a service industry that has a legal obligation to put our customers’ interests first.

      That doesn’t mean that we can’t charge money for our services, or prioritize what level of service we provide different customers; every business needs to do that. It just means that our service can’t prioritize somebody who’d pay us to give the customer a worse deal.

      When we make an error, we correct it and then if necessary, comp the customer for any loss they incurred.

      This ain’t rocket science, but not every firm manages to keep their priorities perfectly straight all the time. It sure helps to have that beacon out there, however: the customer is your employer; you do something on the side to exploit his/her goodwill and you’re out of a job.

      In the specific case of Apple vs Google, Apple’s customers are the handset purchasers, and they deliver services to them. Google’s customers are the advertisers who pay for access to the phone users — almost no money comes from customers. Phone users are customers of a carrier and of a phone maker and those companies are choosing to provide users Google’s OS and other services that they do not themselves produce or commit to support.

      I haven’t ever seen Google abuse their customers. I have seen a lot of deluded folks who think they are Google’s customers, and think that Google is putting their interests first.

      • obarthelemy

        I’m not sure how this is relevant ? He’s just complaining about bad service from Apple, not making a comparison. And you’re throwing in Google who don’t even sell phones apart from the Nexus, and have no retail/service presence. Maybe Samsung and/or a carrier would be a relevant comparison, as opposed to … Google. Next up: buuuuut, MS aren’t fixing my desktop !

      • Walt French

        At least in my industry, there’s a specific definition of how you “put customer interests first.” It doesn’t mean that you give away the store, or that you go above and beyond your warranty obligations.

        And it’s of interest because ultimately, we depend on competition to keep businesses focused on doing the right thing; if Apple were doing an especially shabby job with customers, it’d be an opportunity for Samsung, Nokia or BlackBerry—firms who appear to depend on their reputations in handling large, corporate accounts or at least attempting to do so—to pick up the disgruntled customers. As yet, the tide hasn’t turned on perceived quality or support, and I argue that in Android phones’ case, the limitation is that they do not have the means to do so because customers think they’re Android customers, but they’re not.

  • 1sthand

    This is a turning to be a big Apple fap fest. Well keep it up as it is quite entertaining!

  • Mario Burkhardt

    your forgot Keping your mouth shut… oh no wait you didn’t

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  • OPE

    Pretty spot on! Let’s not forget highest ratio of profit to employee pay! I’m not mad at the company though, it’s capitalism that encourages this.

  • Alex Sumrall

    I think google will always win in greatness